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 The Case of the Credit Cover-Up Caper (???) (Page 1)
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India Ink Member |
posted February 14, 2003 04:00 PM
 
I've been away from the boards for the past few days, but I expected when I returned to the Archives forum I would see a storm of controversy over the Moldoff injustice in the Dynamic Duo Archive. But nothing ??? --have posts on this subject been forbidden/eliminated? Before I go off on an angry tangent over this GREAT injustice I'd like some warning. If my post is just going to be locked (and possibly my user name kicked off the boards), then I'll consider a new approach. Has Bob Greenberger given out any information on this disastrous development? Believe me I'm DEPRESSED, DISILLUSIONED, & DISHEARTENED over this offensive matter. --India Ink (his head about to explode) IP: Logged |
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Coleo Member |
posted February 14, 2003 04:08 PM
I'm sorry. Could you explain what you're referring to? I don't have the book yet, and the injustice is not apparent from your post, although I infer from the title that it has something to do with art credits on the stories Moldoff drew? Cole IP: Logged |
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India Ink Member |
posted February 14, 2003 04:36 PM
Sorry for being cryptic, but I'm just worried that talking about this in detail will get this topic deleted (and maybe even me booted). In the Dynamic Duo archives, all but four of the stories (to the best of my knowledge and you can check the credits given on the GCD ( www.comics.org )) are pencilled by Moldoff. Yet nowhere in the book (and I've searched everywhere) is there any (even a little) credit given to Moldoff. The pencils are credited to Bob Kane on the contents pages-- the biggest extent to which credits are given for anyone else (ie. "ghosts" and assistants) is a mention of the Bob Kane "studio" in Mark Waid's introduction and a passing comment about "the help of ghosts" in the Bob Kane biography provided in the "Biographies" section at the back. In the "Biographies" pages no biography is provided for Moldoff. There are no credits given, that I can find, for any researchers either for the contents or the biographies (usually guys like Mark Waid and Joe Desiris get a research credit or two somewhere in the book)--leading me to suspect that researcher names were removed (possibly in protest???). Sheldon Moldoff kept careful records of all the Batman work he did, and he shared these records with Desiris when that fellow did his own researches on Batman. And DC has reprinted stories from this period before (although I'm not sure about these exact stories) and they have given full credit to Moldoff in those reprint collections. The last time I remember Bob Kane being credited for these stories was back in the early seventies, in the Super-Specs, when Moldoff's identity as "ghost" was still not general knowledge. Probably unrelated--the contents pages were screwed up in a few places (wrong cover dates, issue numbers)--either the work of a gremlin or direct sabotage???? IP: Logged |
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James Friel Member |
posted February 14, 2003 06:38 PM
Just a guess on my part, but it's entirely possible that DC is contractually bound by its agreement with Bob Kane to officially consider and to credit all work emanating from his studio to be his. IP: Logged |
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Matthewwave Member |
posted February 14, 2003 07:16 PM
"In the Dynamic Duo archives, all but four of the stories (to the best of my knowledge and you can check the credits given on the GCD ( www.comics.org )) are pencilled by Moldoff. Yet nowhere in the book (and I've searched everywhere) is there any (even a little) credit given to Moldoff. The pencils are credited to Bob Kane on the contents pages-- the biggest extent to which credits are given for anyone else (ie. "ghosts" and assistants) is a mention of the Bob Kane "studio" in Mark Waid's introduction and a passing comment about "the help of ghosts" in the Bob Kane biography provided in the "Biographies" section at the back." This sucks enormous donkey feces. Matthew ------------------ IP: Logged |
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Joe Average New Member |
posted February 14, 2003 07:45 PM
Bob Kane treated Shelly Moldoff, Bill Finger and all his other co-workers like dirt. There really is no other way to see it. He was arrogant and untruthful about his own contributions. These facts have been documented in numberous places. Check out some old Alter Ego magazines if you want more information. I would have no problem with history being corrected and the true creators attributed. Whew. I'm glad I got that off my chest! IP: Logged |
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India Ink Member |
posted February 14, 2003 08:17 PM
For anyone interested in discovering some of the true history of Batman, I strongly urge them to obtain the square bound Alter-Ego: The Comic Book Artist Collection (the collected edition of Alter-Ego (v.2)), copyright 2001, published by TwoMorrows. This has been an invaluable (if depressing) source for me. It includes an extensive interview with Moldoff on his contribution to Batman, his relationship with Bob Kane, and his sorry treatment in latter days. I do believe there are legal reasons, vis a vis the Bob Kane estate, for the extinction of Moldoff (a killing in print). Although these reasons must be of the moment--since there was no such prohibition a year ago (given the credits in other DC reprint collections). IP: Logged |
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India Ink Member |
posted February 14, 2003 09:12 PM
Here's my cut n paste attempt to put up the actual credits for the stories reprinted in the DD archive, swiping everything from the GCD site. First there's the BATMAN issues 164, 165: Batman #164 © DC [No Title] Cover Feature: Batman Genre: superhero Indexer notes: Editor: Julius Schwartz This series has been indexed by Bill Wormstedt, Lou Mougin, Craig Delich, John Greb, Carlos Tasada, . 1. Two-Way Gem Caper! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reprinted: in Batman 240 Genre: superhero Indexer notes: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Character appearances: Reprinted: reprinted in Batman #240 Genre: superhero Indexer notes: *** © DC [No Title] Cover Feature: Batman Genre: superhero Editor: Julius Schwartz This series has been indexed by Bill Wormstedt, Lou Mougin, Craig Delich, John Greb, Carlos Tasada, . 1. The Man Who Quit the Human Race
Genre: superhero Indexer notes: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Character appearances: Reprinted: in Batman #208 Genre: superhero Indexer notes: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- IP: Logged |
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NecessaryImpurity Member |
posted February 14, 2003 09:18 PM
How certain are we that these Kane stories were actually done by Moldoff? I understand that Kane's role was slight to nil, but are we certain that it was Moldoff and not someone else? Just checking... Even if DC is contractually bound to credit Kane, there was nothing preventing a mention on the Bio page for Moldoff (or any other Kane Studio employee). This is indeed wrong, and I hope something can be done for the 2nd printing and Volume 2. I'm also curious why the "Bob Kane" stories in B:WFC could be properly credited, but the B: DD (gotta watch that colon/D pairing!) volume was left to Kane. IP: Logged |
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India Ink Member |
posted February 14, 2003 09:27 PM
Next DETECTIVE COMICS 327, 328, 329, 330: Detective Comics #327 © DC Cover Feature: Batman Genre: superhero Indexer notes: Editor: Julius Schwartz This series has been indexed by Bill Wormstedt, Bob Klein, Mike Tiefenbacher, Jerry Bails, Carl Gafford, John Greb, Kelly Langston-Smith, . 1. The Mystery of the Menacing Mask!
Genre: superhero -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- © DC Cover Feature: Batman Character appearances: Genre: superhero Editor: Julius Schwartz This series has been indexed by Bill Wormstedt, Bob Klein, Mike Tiefenbacher, Jerry Bails, Carl Gafford, John Greb, Kelly Langston-Smith, .
Character appearances: Reprinted: in Detective Comics #438, one-page excerpt in Batman #208 Genre: superhero © DC Cover Feature: Batman Genre: superhero
This series has been indexed by Bill Wormstedt, Bob Klein, Mike Tiefenbacher, Jerry Bails, Carl Gafford, John Greb, Kelly Langston-Smith, . 1. Castle with Wall-to-Wall Danger!
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Reprinted: reprinted in Batman #235 Genre: superhero 1937 Series - DC, August 1964, 36 pages, coverprice 0.12 © DC Cover Feature: Batman Character appearances: Genre: superhero Editor: Julius Schwartz This series has been indexed by Bill Wormstedt, Bob Klein, Mike Tiefenbacher, Jerry Bails, Carl Gafford, John Greb, Kelly Langston-Smith, . 2. The Fallen Idol of Gotham City! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Character appearances: Genre: superhero Indexer notes: IP: Logged |
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India Ink Member |
posted February 14, 2003 09:47 PM
Necessary Impurity, as you can see, GCD does credit Moldoff. That's not proof, but many sources have identified Moldoff in the past. The funny thing is that Moldoff--in his own style is doing PSAs right along side these "Bob Kane" stories (with old Batman editor, Jack Schiff, writing the PSAs). My eye (which I humbly confess is quite good for identifying artists) tells me that there's enough of a similarity between the PSAs and the Batman stories (despite the "Kane" style and the imposition of Giella's inks) that it's a good guess that the same penciller (ie. Moldoff) did both. Then there's all the commission works that Moldoff has done since his dismissal by his partner, Bob Kane. Compare these commission works with those that Bob Kane did in his latter days (or at least those that he took credit for--it's impossible to trust Kane's word on anything). The Kane commissions look like a modified version of his late thirties/early forties credited works. The Moldoff commissions look almost precisely like his fifties and early sixties works. Moldoff's "old look" style is different from the "new look" but only slightly in superficial detail (the poses, the hand to the chin gestures, etc., are all classic Moldoff doing "Bob Kane"). It's also obvious to my eye that a new artist took over after Moldoff (identified as Chic Stone by researchers), so I can tell the difference between one ghost and another. Lew Schwartz preceded Moldoff and the difference is a lot harder to spot, but I think I could probably tell the difference (a messier kind of approach from Schwartz). The only story that I'm dubious about in the archive is the one in BATMAN 167. It looks mostly like Moldoff as inked by Giella, but there are spots where it doesn't quite fit. Giella seems to have done a lot of extra background detail on this story (perhaps on the urging of Julie Schwartz to bring the art up to near the Infantino level), but some foreground figures and faces also don't match the Moldoff style. This could be Giella--there's an outside possibility that Bob Kane himself or another assistant had a hand in this, but I kinda doubt that. The last panels of the story in particular are not quite right. Bruce looks odd, and Dick Grayson looks like he has freckles. But this is one of those issues that I haven't yet added to my "new look" collection, so I can't compare the archive's restored art with the original published art. IP: Logged |
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India Ink Member |
posted February 14, 2003 09:56 PM
Now GCD on BATMAN 166 & 167: Batman #166 © DC Cover Feature: Batman Genre: superhero Editor: Julius Schwartz This series has been indexed by Bill Wormstedt, Lou Mougin, Craig Delich, John Greb, Carlos Tasada, . 1. Two-Way Deathtrap!
Genre: superhero --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Character appearances: Genre: superhero -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- © DC Cover Feature: Batman Genre: superhero Editor: Julius Schwartz This series has been indexed by Bill Wormstedt, Lou Mougin, Craig Delich, John Greb, Carlos Tasada, . 1. Zero Hour for Earth! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Genre: superhero Indexer notes: IP: Logged |
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India Ink Member |
posted February 14, 2003 10:07 PM
And finally GCD on DETECTIVE COMICS 331, 332, & 333: Detective Comics #331 © DC Cover Feature: Batman Genre: superhero Editor: Julius Schwartz This series has been indexed by Bill Wormstedt, Bob Klein, Mike Tiefenbacher, Jerry Bails, Carl Gafford, John Greb, Kelly Langston-Smith, . 1. Museum of Mixed-Up Men!
Character appearances: Genre: superhero Indexer notes: *** Cover Feature: Batman Character appearances: Genre: superhero Editor: Julius Schwartz This series has been indexed by Bill Wormstedt, Bob Klein, Mike Tiefenbacher, Jerry Bails, Carl Gafford, John Greb, Kelly Langston-Smith, .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Character appearances: Genre: superhero ***
© DC Cover Feature: Batman Genre: superhero Editor: Julius Schwartz This series has been indexed by Bill Wormstedt, Bob Klein, Mike Tiefenbacher, Jerry Bails, Carl Gafford, John Greb, Kelly Langston-Smith, . 1. Hunters of the Elephants' Graveyard!
Genre: superhero -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- IP: Logged |
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India Ink Member |
posted February 14, 2003 10:12 PM
Just to cover my behind in the event that this topic does get deleted, I've copied it to disc. IP: Logged |
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NecessaryImpurity Member |
posted February 14, 2003 10:48 PM
Ink, why so paranoid? The last time anything nasty happened on this board was during the Essentials Wars, a year or so ago. Unless things start getting personal (example: "Dale Crain is stooge of the Kane Mafia"  ), nobody's getting banned. Or threads deleted.IP: Logged |
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India Ink Member |
posted February 14, 2003 10:49 PM
Okay one last post on this topic and I'll give it a rest for today. I need to explain why I'm so depressed (although talking about my depression, helps--a kind of therapy). First off the "new look" Batman is it for me. I understand others think it's an ugly step-child. But I love everything about the "new look" Batman (I mean the comics, not necessarily all the behind the scenes drama). This is what got me so passionate about comics and about DC. And so, of all the archives I have campaigned for and hoped for, this Dynamic Duo archive was the one I wanted the most. When I was in the store on Wednesday I got the tingles as I saw the book on the shelf. I was a gleeful eight year old boy again. I couldn't contain myself. Getting home with my books, I didn't take off the shrink-wrap right away--I wanted to build up the anticipation. So I read a few new comics first. And then I took off the plastic and joyously thumbed through the Dynamic Duo archive. I did think it was too bad that there was very little Infantino--since I knew a lot of posters on these boards wouldn't be impressed with Moldoff--so I turned to the contents page to check the ratio of Moldoff to Infantino stories in the edition. And there it was. "Bob Kane." Not a Moldoff anywhere. I was shocked, dumbfounded. I searched through the book hoping for some explanation, but then I realized the truth of the matter and my shock gave way to rage, anger, fury. I wanted to throw my archive out the window! I wondered how I could ever buy or read another DC comic ever again! And then as the awful truth settled in, my shock and anger gave way to depression, sadness, a forlorn ache. I went to my life drawing class that night and tried to lose myself in the art, but always in my mind I was thinking about poor Sheldon Moldoff. Now nearing the end of his life. Such a profound sadness. With anything else in comics, ultimately I can say "well it's just a comic." But in this case, it's not just a comic. The comicbook side of things is hardly the issue at all. I mean think of your own life. All of us are these solitary animals trying to make a meaning for ourselves, reflecting on our lives and trying to find the good in our existence. Maybe through some grand thing we hope to put our mark on our life, before we pass on. And here's Sheldon Moldoff--I'm walking in his shoes and I just don't see the fairness of it. He did nothing to deserve this. He should be recognized, but because of legal things, because of material concerns, because of corporate interests--he's denied. And the thing of it is--what depresses me all the more--is I can see all the sides of the issue. Afterall it's the raison d'etre of the Bob Kane estate to protect its interests. There are real living people who gain employment from that estate--it's someone's livelihood. I can't blame someone for trying to protect their livelihood. And I can't blame DC. They have to deal with the estate, and the stakes are high--if DC loses Batman they might as well fold up their tent--thousands of people out of work--mothers and fathers unable to feed their kids. Would I want any of that to happen? And so it's this horrible result of living in the material world. No one's at fault (not a single living person)--it's just the damned way things shake out. And not even Bob Kane (may he rest in peace) benefits from all this. In his life he lied and fabricated and distorted--it's impossible to figure out what he really contributed to Batman. If he were a witness in a court case, a lawyer would have no problem impuning his testimony. It can be proven that he lied on some matters, so nothing he says can be taken as reliable. If Bob had been honest--I don't know if he would have profited as much--but he would have a genuine status in the comic book field. We could say for a certainty what he did do, what he contributed to Batman. All fans could celebrate Bob Kane and be proud of his contributions. As it is, myself (and probably many others) I have real doubts about what Bob Kane created, if anything. So the efforts on the part of the estate are counter-productive insofar as Bob Kane's status goes. His past sins should be forgotten, only his glories should be remembered in the afterlife. But the estate's efforts on his behalf serve to continually remind us of the injustices done by Bob Kane. And that's not fair to his memory. IP: Logged |
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Scott Nichols Member |
posted February 14, 2003 10:58 PM
Since I've been buried in work recently, I had not spent time drooling over the projected contents, and I do not own any of these stories. Upon opening the book my reactions, in order were: "What! Only four Infantino stories!!" "Bob Kane?! The penciller?! Bull Ordure!! Why didn't they credit Kane's ghost penciller?!!" However, after that disappointment I did get more ironic enjoyment from the Bob Kane text piece about how he created Batman and how he spends his days chained to the drawing board. I am most surprised that Mark Waid agreed to do an introduction praising Bob Kane for his renewed pencilling energy at the intro of the "New Look", while side stepping the Ghost issue. -Scott IP: Logged |
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Lee Semmens Member |
posted February 15, 2003 06:20 AM
I have a few thoughts on the omission of Sheldon Moldoff's credits from The Dynamic Duo archive. I doubt that his omission from the book would have anything to with legal reasons, after all, Bob Kane is dead, and even he can't sue from the grave. Also, in the Golden Age Batman archives DC has no problems about crediting the actual artists, even though most, if not all, the stories were signed by Kane. According to my records all the early "New Look" Batman stories, in the Batman comic book at least, were incorrectly credited to Bob Kane by GCD until quite recently. Possibly this may be a factor in why Moldoff receives no credit. I am firmly of the belief that DC often uses GCD as a source of credits. For what it is worth, and at the risk of being accused of name-dropping, I have discussed the issue of Bob Kane and his ghosts, mainly Moldoff, with Roy Thomas (and he apparently knows Moldoff quite well), and he seriously doubted that Kane actually did any art on Batman AT ALL, after about the early-mid 1950s. In my opinion, Moldoff has been dealt a grave disservice, and I for one feel great sympathy for him. IP: Logged |
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Matthewwave Member |
posted February 15, 2003 08:38 AM
"I doubt that his omission from the book would have anything to with legal reasons, after all, Bob Kane is dead, and even he can't sue from the grave." I'm sure he set up an estate before he died. Matthew ------------------ IP: Logged |
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REKLEN Member |
posted February 15, 2003 12:24 PM
Remember, Moldoff has no regrets. He has stated this numerous times. He made alot of money, it gave him steady income, and he knew what he was getting into. If he wasn't Kane's ghost he would have been forgotten anyway. Reklen IP: Logged |
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whoswhoz Member |
posted February 15, 2003 02:51 PM
quote: Moldoff had a lot more to his career than being Kane's ghost. He created the Black Pirate, and drew Hawkman for several years in the forties and did most of the early Flash and Green Lantern covers- plus he did Moon Girl and claims to have created the EC horror comic line! IP: Logged |
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whoswhoz Member |
posted February 15, 2003 02:55 PM
quote: This is true, the GCDB sixties Batman credits somehow got screwed up while correcting the fifties credits. I personally fixed them all several months ago. There are a couple of questionable stories in there still, which may have been pencilled by Joe Giella. There is some doubt as to how many stories Chic Stone pencilled and how early he started. But as near as the GCDB can tell, there is virtually NO Bob Kane artwork after 1952. IP: Logged |
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India Ink Member |
posted February 15, 2003 04:55 PM
Scott--it's quite possible that Mark Waid's introduction was edited after he wrote it. Lee--it's my understanding (and I'll stand to be corrected if I'm in error) that DC had an agreement with Bob Kane, which continues after his death through his estate. This agreement (much like the one with the estates of Shuster and Siegel on Superman, or the more contentious agreement with the Marston estate on Wonder Woman) recognizes Bob Kane as the "creator" of Batman, and that's why you see the creator credit box on every Batman story (and not because the guys at DC are such nice guys that they just feel like giving a shout out to the memory of Bob Kane). And--this is just my own speculation, mind--that's probably why you'll never see any kind of creator credit for Bill Finger. It's probably easier and smarter for DC's lawyers to deal with one estate than two or three or more--and so they've made the decision not to recognize Finger. Reklen--I haven't talked to Moldoff (ever) so I don't know how he feels right this minute. Reading the Bill Schelly interview with Sheldon in the Alter-Ego collection (see above), Moldoff has a lot to say about his handshake partnership with Bob Kane (as he describes it, it sounds like it was a real partnership, not a case of employee/employer). Handshake deals are legally recognized in contract law, so I do believe Moldoff had a claim. Bob Kane promised Moldoff that he would always have steady employment, always a paycheque--Batman was going to be Moldoff's retirement fund. And then Bob Kane, without a thought, broke the agreement. Moldoff, despite his bitterness about Kane, at the time of the interview was feeling good about everything in retrospect because guys like Joe Desiris were doing a good job of getting him credit for his work. DC was recognizing his contributions, and he was getting royalty payments for reprinted work. Since Moldoff was not credited for anything in the Dynamic Duo archive, I have to wonder if he saw any money (or will see any money from DC) on his rightful royalties for that work. However much money Moldoff got in the past--DC and Bob Kane got a WHOLE lot more Many comics talents have fought battles--since the seventies (and since the Moldoff-Kane split), often at great personal cost--for such rights as royalties, creator credit, pensions, etc. This could potentially set back the clock on those hard-won rights. whoswhoz--you're right Sheldon Moldoff did a whole lot more besides being Bob Kane's ghost. At the time the ghost gig probably was good for Moldoff, since as a freelance artist he didn't command a high salary like Bob Kane who had a contract with DC that guaranteed a certain amount of work at a certain rate. I didn't mean to suggest that this one problem in Moldoff's life darkens everything else he accomplished. But at his stage of life he shouldn't have to be fighting these battles for legitimate recogniton--recognition he had already won in the past. Given the amount of work invested in every DC archive, I don't think it's possible that the Bob Kane credits are just some last minute mistake. The total of the contents page, biographies section, and introduction (and the lack of proper researcher or biographer credits) leads me to believe the omission of Moldoff was deliberate and calculated. IF NOT--if this was just an unfortunate error, I hope Bob Greenberger will immediately clear it up and say so on these boards--and I will then apologize for any errors on my part. IP: Logged |
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Osgood Peabody Member |
posted February 16, 2003 01:36 PM
I've just had a chance last night to start reading this book, and I hadn't noticed the issue of credits, or lack thereof, until seeing your post. You definitely raise a legitimate question - especially as when I look through the "Greatest Batman Stories" volumes, I see that both Moldoff and Chic Stone receive story credits, and those volumes were obviously issued when Mr. Kane was still with us. I would like to pose this question to Bob G. on his thread - but I'd rather wait until Tuesday when he's back in, as that thread has become heavily trafficked as of late. IP: Logged |
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Steven Utley Member |
posted February 16, 2003 02:49 PM
What I'd like to know is what Bob Kane did with his time when he wasn't making his evidently minimal contributions to the Batman comics. IP: Logged |
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